James Chosy is general counsel of US Bank, which is a member of Diversity Lab's Move the Needle Fund. Chosy is an active voice in the in-house community on the issues of diversity in the profession and testing new ways to improve diversity both in law departments and law firms. In advance of speaking on this topic at our Legal Business Strategy conference at Legalweek NY next month, we checked in with Chosy about how outside counsel can get his attention and why this latest effort by GCs to improve diversity will have better success.

The American Lawyer: What do you hope to see change within law firms as a result of your and others' involvement in the Move the Needle Fund and how will you help achieve that result?

James Chosy: I hope to see law firms pause and reflect on whether their programs and goals for diversity are aggressive enough, given that progress in the profession is not happening fast enough. I hope firms will follow the lead of the Move the Needle Fund and realize that it's safe to enter the deep end of the pool with diversity objectives, and that clients will support bold goals and work collaboratively with them to get there. We have a big role to play in this as a client and big user of outside law firms, and we plan to encourage, assist and reward those firms that are willing to be more aggressive, take some risk and really try to "move the needle" on diversity and equity.

TAL: What are you doing in your own organization to improve diversity?

JC:  We have several programs and initiatives underway. Like many law firms and corporate legal departments, we're not yet where we want to be with diversity. So, it's a continual work in progress.

We have a D&I council that guides and oversees our program, and an individual "champion" who acts as a point person and liaison for the legal department to U.S. Bank's broader diversity, equity and inclusion efforts. We have a recruiting committee, which has instituted and oversees practices further to hiring more diverse professionals, and a formal mentoring program. We're also a member of various affinity bar and similar groups focused on diversity, and a signatory to the ABA's general counsel pledge on Resolution 113.

We set diversity expectations with our outside counsel, including requesting that members of our preferred firm program adopt Diversity Lab's Mansfield Rule, just as we've done as an initial member of the Mansfield pilot program for corporate departments begun last year. We were also pleased to participate as a founding member of the Move the Needle Fund, Diversity Lab's newest project.

Finally, we've established a program we call "spotlight on talent," whereby we invite preferred law firms to apply for the opportunity to profile their diverse talent by conducting an in-person educational session for our entire law department followed by meetings with our senior leadership and practice groups. It's been a great way to provide visibility to the firm's diverse talent and the opportunity to build relationships with our people who are positioned to retain them.

While we're doing a lot with our overall program, we evaluate it continually to test whether we're doing the right things and in the right way so as to make the progress we need. We certainly don't have it all figured out yet, but we're working hard at it.

TAL: There have been many calls to action by general counsel for improved diversity over the years.  Why do you think these efforts will make a bigger impact?

JC: The hope with the general counsels' calls to action is that they will demonstrate the importance of diversity to our companies and legal departments. It really is mission-critical for us. When clients (particularly larger ones) ask, law firms tend to listen, and we have an opportunity to leverage our purchasing power to drive attention and action on diversity.

Personally, I feel an obligation to use our position of influence to actually have some influence on this topic. That said, diversity in the profession is certainly not just an issue for law firms, but for corporate departments, too, and also other employers. We're all in it together, and we need to keep thinking creatively and working together with efforts like Move the Needle.

Notwithstanding the best efforts and intentions of some of the prior calls to action, we've not made enough progress yet with diversity and equity in the legal profession. The MTN Fund is a really novel approach; we all need to be trying new and different things like this and pushing ourselves harder. Generally speaking, what we've been doing to this point simply hasn't worked well enough.

TAL: Including but not limited to diversity, how are you measuring and tracking the success of your outside counsel? What do you expect them to offer besides the given of exceptional legal services?

JC: We're looking for more than just expert legal advice, although that has been and will remain a primary consideration. We try to view our law firm relationships as just that—relationships. Successful ones take hard work and good communication as to the mutual wants, needs and expectations. We have a preferred counsel program, representing our most significant law firm relationships, that provides some structure and baseline expectations for both sides. For example, and aside from arrangements around fees and service, our preferred firms must demonstrate a commitment to diversity, provide educational opportunities for our lawyers, and participate with us in pro bono partnerships. We measure various aspects of our overall relationship and then provide focused feedback in relationship review meetings.

TAL: In thinking about opportunities to form relationships with new outside counsel, what would be a key takeaway for any new firm looking to pitch you?

JC: With new law firms looking to do work for U.S. Bank, we're interested in a number of things.  Most obviously, capability, expertise and experience—can the firm handle the work we need done effectively and efficiently? Also, given today's landscape in banking and financial services, how the firm thinks about and approaches innovation. Additionally, we're keen to understand firms' commitment to diversity, equity and inclusion; in order to get the best advice and service we need diversity of thought and perspective. In the end, the people matter the most. We're trying to find capable professionals who understand our industry and our company, can deliver what we need, and can work well with our lawyers and businesspeople. Frequently, we're looking for problem-solvers—law firms and lawyers who can help us make hard decisions and not just offer up detached alternatives.

For more on this topic, sign up to attend Legal Business Strategy. The session on this topic takes place Feb. 4 from 12:30-1:303pm EST. Other speakers include moderator Leila Hock of Diversity Lab and panelists Annette Bernstein of AIG and Mitch Zuklie of Orrick, along with Chosy.

This session will examine: How GCs are actively looking to reapportion their outside counsel spend. What stands out to GCs when hiring new counsel? How are law firms promoting their diversity efforts and what has the in-house response been? How have law firms and individual attorneys successfully pitched for new work? How are GCs diversifying their own ranks? How are they using data to make decisions?